General principles for the use of AI at CERN

(web.cern.ch)

54 points | by singiamtel 3 hours ago

9 comments

  • macleginn 3 minutes ago
    ‘Sustainability: The use of AI must be assessed with the goal of mitigating environmental and social risks and enhancing CERN's positive impact in relation to society and the environment.’ [1]

    ‘CERN uses 1.3 terawatt hours of electricity annually. That’s enough power to fuel 300,000 homes for a year in the United Kingdom.’ [2]

    I think AI is the least of their problems, seeing as they burn a lot of trees for the sake of largely impractical pure knowledge.

    [1] https://home.web.cern.ch/news/official-news/knowledge-sharin... [2] https://home.cern/science/engineering/powering-cern

  • GranularRecipe 29 minutes ago
    What I find interesting is the implicit priorisation: explainability, (human) accountability, lawfulness, fairness, safety, sustainability, data privacy and non-military use.
  • conartist6 2 hours ago
    Feels like the useless kind of corporate policy, expressed in terms of the loftiest ideals instead of how to make real trade offs with costs
    • SiempreViernes 40 minutes ago
      It is a organisation wide document of "General principles", how could it possibly have something more specific to say that about the inherently context specific trade-offs of each specific use of AI?
    • alkonaut 1 hour ago
      99% of corporate policies are to be able to point to a document that says "well it's not my fault, I made the policy and someone didn't follow it".
      • marginalia_nu 8 minutes ago
        You don't even need to go as far as saying someone didn't follow the policy, you can just say you need to review the policies. That way, conveniently enough, nobody is really ever at fault!
    • jordanpg 1 hour ago
      Organizations above a certain size absolutely cannot help themselves but publish this stuff. It is the work of senior middle managers. Ark Fleet Ship B.

      I work in a corporate setting that has been working on a "strategy rebrand" for over a year now and despite numerous meeting, endless powerpoint, and god knows how much money to consultants, I still have no idea what any of this has to do with my work.

  • singiamtel 3 hours ago
    I found this principle particularly interesting:

        Human oversight: The use of AI must always remain under human control. Its functioning and outputs must be consistently and critically assessed and validated by a human.
    • contrarian1234 0 minutes ago
      Do they hold the CERN Roomba to the same standard? If it cleans the same section of carpet twice is someone going to have to do a review?
    • Sharlin 54 minutes ago
      Interesting in what sense? Isn't it just stating something plainly obvious?
      • jacquesm 50 minutes ago
        It is, but unfortunately the fact that to you - and me - it is obvious does not mean it is obvious to everybody.
        • Sharlin 41 minutes ago
          Quite. One would hope, though, that it would be clear to prestigious scientific research organizations in particular, just like everything else related to source criticism and proper academic conduct.
      • mk89 14 minutes ago
        I want to see how obvious this becomes when you start to add agents left and right that make decisions automagically...
      • SiempreViernes 36 minutes ago
        Did you forget the entire DOGE episode where every government worker in the US had to send an weekly email to an LLM to justify their existence?
        • Sharlin 26 minutes ago
          I'd hold CERN to a slightly higher standard than DOGE when it comes to what's considered plainly obvious.
          • SiempreViernes 20 minutes ago
            Sure, but the way you maintain this standard is by codifying rules that are distinct from the "lower" practices you find elsewhere.

            In other words, because of the huge DOGE clusterfuck demonstrated how horrible practices people will actually enact, you need to put this into the principles.

    • xtiansimon 36 minutes ago
      Where is “human oversight” in an automated workflow? I noticed the quote didn’t say “inputs”.

      And with testing and other services, I guess human oversight can be reduced to _looking at the dials_ for the green and red lights?

      • SiempreViernes 25 minutes ago
        Someone's inputs is someone else's outputs, I don't think you have spotted an interesting gap. Certainly just looking at the dials will do for monitoring functioning, but falls well short of validating the system performance.
    • monkeydust 32 minutes ago
      The real interesting thing is how does that principle interplay with their pillars and goals i.e. if the goal is to "optimize workflow and resource usage" then having a human in the loop at all points might limit or fully erode this ambition. Obviously it not that black and white, certain tasks could be fully autonomous where others require human validation and you could be net positive - but - this challenge is not exclusive to CERN that's for sure.
    • conartist6 2 hours ago
      It's still just a platitude. Being somewhat critical is still giving some implicit trust. If you didn't give it any trust at all, you wouldn't use it at all! So they endorse trusting it is my read, exactly the opposite of what they appear to say!

      It's funny how many official policies leave me thinking that it's a corporate cover-your-ass policy and if they really meant it they would have found a much stronger and plainer way to say it

      • MaybiusStrip 34 minutes ago
        "You can use AI but you are responsible for and must validate its output" is a completely reasonable and coherent policy. I'm sure they stated exactly what they intended to.
        • geokon 2 minutes ago
          If you have a program that looks at CCTV footage and IDs animals that go by.. is a human supposed to validate every single output? How about if it's thousands of hours of footage?

          I think parent comment is right. It's just a platitude for administrators to cover their backs and it doesn't hold to actual usecases

      • hgomersall 43 minutes ago
        That doesn't follow. Say you write a proof for a something I request, I can then check that proof. That doesn't mean I don't derive any value from being given the proof. A lack of trust does not imply no use.
      • SiempreViernes 32 minutes ago
        > So they endorse trusting it is my read, exactly the opposite of what they appear to say!

        They endorse limited trust, not exactly a foreign concept to anyone who's taken a closer look at an older loaf of bread before cutting a slice to eat.

      • miningape 2 hours ago
        I think you're more reading what you want to read out of that - but that's the problem, it's too ambiguous to be useful
  • Schlagbohrer 1 hour ago
    It's about as detailed and helpful as saying, "Don't be an asshole"
    • elashri 1 hour ago
      In such scientific environment, There are gentlemen agreements about many things that boils down to "Don't be an asshole" or "Be considerate of the others" with some hard requirements at this or that point for things that are very serious.
  • oytis 1 hour ago
    What's so special about military research or AI that the two can't be done together even though the organization is not in principle opposed to either?
    • LudwigNagasena 1 hour ago
      CERN is in principle opposed to military research. That and stuff like lawfulness, fairness, sustainability, privacy are just general CERN principles restated for fluff.
    • oblio 1 hour ago
      > CERN’s convention states: “The Organization shall have no concern with work for military requirements and the results of its experimental and theoretical work shall be published or otherwise made generally available.”

      CERN was founded after WW2 in Europe, and like all major European institutions founded at the time, it was meant to be a peaceful institution.

      • oytis 1 hour ago
        Sorry, looks like I misunderstood what "having no concern" means.
        • danparsonson 51 minutes ago
          Yeah it's written as in, "we don't concern ourselves with that", i.e. it's none of their business
      • jacquesm 49 minutes ago
        It's a bit of a fig leaf though, any high energy physics has military implications.
        • tempay 36 minutes ago
          What does the LHC physics program have to do with military applications?
          • oskarkk 5 minutes ago
            Research on interactions between particles can probably be helpful for nuclear weapons R&D.
          • miningape 28 minutes ago
            You'd be surprised how creative the military can be when there's demand
        • fainpul 31 minutes ago
          Doesn't all of physics have some military implications?

          But at least they make everything public knowledge, instead of keeping it secret and only selling it to one nation.

  • DisjointedHunt 39 minutes ago
    This corporate crap makes me want to puke. It is a consequence of the forced bureaucracy from European regulations, particularly the EU AI act which is not well thought out and actively adds liability and risk to anyone on the continent touching AI including old school methods such as bank credit scoring systems.
    • fsh 36 minutes ago
      CERN is neither corporate, nor in the EU.
      • DisjointedHunt 10 minutes ago
        The content is corporate. The EU AI Act is extra judicial. You don't have to be in the EU to adopt this very set of "AI Principles", but if you don't, you carry liability.
  • Temporary_31337 1 hour ago
    blah, blah,people will simply use it as they see fit
  • eisbaw 41 minutes ago
    So general that it says nothing. Very corporate.